“My obligation as an archeologist and a scientist is to propagate my field, and this is an ideal opportunity to do that,” said Mirjana Sanader, archeologist and chair of the Department of Antiquity, Provincial and Early Christian Archeology in the Faculty of Philosophy of the University of Zagreb. I spoke with Mrs. Sanader several days ago as she was at the archeological dig site at Gardun near Trilj, where she and her colleagues and archeology students have been studying the Roman military base Tilurium for the past eight years.

Mirjana Sanader, wife of Premier Sanader, does not like the limelight and she wanted to speak exclusively about her field and the ongoing dig of the Roman remains at Gardun. This Split born woman, who spends one month with thirty students at this dig site each summer admits that she got herself into a massive task which will likely take several decades to complete. The Roman military base Tilurium was located just interior to Solin, once the main and most powerful city of the Dalmatian province, about 30 km away from today’s Split. This base was on the “watch point” above the pass of the Cetina River, and this spot on the hillside was perfect for a camp which had a special function in the Roman military strategy in Dalmatia.

In Trilj and Gardun, everyone knows of Mirjana Sanader and her research team, they do all they can to help and are exceptionally proud that a great structure of antiquity is slowly but surely being uncovered in their fields. I found the research team seated at a long table at lunchtime, in the shade of a large tree near the former school at Gardun, where the young archeologists were sorting artifacts dug up at the site under the watchful eye of the professors. The lunch break and rest lasts daily from noon to 3 p.m., when the sun is at its hottest, and afterwards, they break up into teams and each team heads back to work on its section.

NACIONAL: Were you the first to begin the archeological dig in this location?
Archeological digs have been conducted in Croatia for over a hundred years. However, during the wars, including the Patriotic War, there were no digs. When the situation began to calm down, our department decided to begin a dig at Gardun. We are obligated to provide archeological practice in the field for our students. They need to know what to do in the field when they find work one day and come across a find. That is where we differ from the other areas of study in the Faculty of Philosophy. When the time came to again intensify our archeological research, as the chair of the Provincial and Early Christian Archeology I though long and hard about where that should be. I wanted it to be at a location not yet studied, that no one had been there before me. I knew the exact method I wanted to apply at the site. After studying the literature, and after talking with my colleagues, I decided to begin researching the military base Tilurium. Had I known what I was getting into, perhaps I would never had decided on this location, as this is a massive area covering 12 hectares.

NACIONAL: What kind of a camp was this?
This was Roman legion camp in the Roman province of Dalmatia, which covered the region of the Rasa River in Istria to the Sava and Drava Rivers, which also means all of today’s Bosnia Herzegovina. There were only two such legion camps: Burnum on the Krka River and Tilurium on the Cetina River. Tilurium is found in today’s village of Gardun near Trilj. There were many fortresses in the Roman Empire with small military crews, while the legion camp had from 5 to 7 thousand soldiers, and as such was like a small city. There were 60 Roman legion camps, and to date, 40 have been studied. This has proven to be a painstaking task which has been ongoing for over 100 years. For example, the Carnuntum camp marked the 120th year of study just two years ago.

NACIONAL: Has the military camp Burnum been studied?
It was studied by the Austrians at the beginning of the 20th century, but the research was cut short. In the 1970s, the Austrians appeared again, but they only did one summer of research. At the beginning of this year, archeologists from the University of Zadar and the Archeological Museum in Drniš began to study the amphitheatre of the camp and they have been very successful. We began our research at Gardun eight years ago. The Burnum and Tilurium camps were erected at the same time, somewhere near the beginning of the new era.

NACIONAL: How was Tilurium found and since when has it been known of?
Tilurium is referred to in the ancient literature and in ancient itineraries. Furthermore, over the past hundred years, many locals of this town have brought various artifacts to the museum. The most characteristic were tombstones that marked the graves of the soldiers of the 7th Legion who were stationed here. The 11th Legion was in Burnum.

NACIONAL: How is it that research on Tilurium did not begin earlier?
Probably because a great deal of will and energy is required, as this is a massive site. The location has been under state protection since the 1980s, and for the dig to begin at Gardun, we needed to inform the people here of the project, as in my opinion, cooperation is required on both sides. Without the local population, the researchers cannot succeed. Fortunately, we were warmly received. Before we bring our students to Gardun, we teach them how to conduct themselves in the field and how to work. Abroad there are special classes which teach field conduct.

NACIONAL: You spend one month a year at Gardun with your students, from mid June to mid July. How many students have the opportunity to work at the site in that period?
We lead two groups of fifteen students for two weeks. We usually work on two probes on two locations within those 12 hectares, even though we opened a third probe just days ago. We take workers with us to help with the difficult physical work. That is Dalmatia, full of rock, high heat and help is required, even though the students, even the women, do much of the work themselves.

NACIONAL: What have you found at Gardun, what did the military camp have and how was it organized?
Thanks to research ongoing in the world, the floor plan of the military camps have already been established, while ancient writers wrote of its appearance. We know that it had walls, they were either square or rectangular in shape, depending on the terrain. They were situated in strategic places. There were entrance gates, a main road where the commander’s house was located, his house was called the pretorium. Next to this was the command headquarters, the principia, like a military staff. This was the central location about which life in the camp was centred: changing of the guards, there were scribes, military and camp holy objects, they held festivals and celebrations and arms were kept here. A large camp could also have its own hospital – valetudinarium. They had wheat stores – horee, where dried meats were often stored in addition to wheat. They had workshops, factories and sleeping quarters – kontubernia, which took up the greater part of the camp. The camps also had their stables – stablua and even fields – prate legionis where the cattle grazed, and wheat was grown. Nearby their had a training ground in the shape of an amphitheatre.

NACIONAL: How did you know where to begin?
We decided to start with the walls. In the book on the first five years of researching Tilurium, it describes how we reconstructed the walls and how we begin studying the building of 70 metres which had contrafores, very well preserved side columns. At first, we thought this was the wheat storage facility, for in all the camps studied to date where auxiliary troops were stationed, had wheat storage facilities with contrafores that could, as is thought, hold up the building due to the weight of the wheat. However, the building we found perhaps is not a wheat storage facility, as there are no other structures that would imply this. Many scientific answers will come only with the systematic research ongoing here.

NACIONAL: When you arrived at the site, was there any indication that something had been here before?
No nothing, it was all underground. I had read about Tilurium in all the existing literature in order to get an idea about how it looked, and research on Burnum and other camps also helped. When we arrived at the site, we walked around to do a reconnaissance, scope out the surface. We spoke with the locals who told us of the artifacts that had been found there. We immediately came upon a building in the beginning at the border area, where the locals throw the rocks when they clean their fields. In the second case, the owner of a house situated right next to the Roman site decorated the fence of his yard with small stones used to form a mosaic. I studied the origin of those stones and, only when the building was found did I realize that the stone was the same. We have well protected the mosaic site and perhaps in the next few years we will conserve the mosaic and put it on display for the public. It is time to start showing the site. The Italians long ago decided to combine their cultural heritage with tourism, and as such that is the name of their ministry. That is a good thing and I would like to see the same in Croatia. I will help out as much as I can in that respect.

NACIONAL: What are the most significant finds at Gardun?
The most significant is the architecture. The remnants of the architecture are truly monumental and very well preserved. In addition to what I’ve already mentioned, we also found a very well preserved water cistern. In turns of movable objects, I’ve already said that the people here who work the fields have found various artifacts. It has been that way for the past century. Some of those artifacts are in museums, and we are coming across many new artifacts as we dig. However, there are no sensational finds nor can there be, as this was a military camp and not a city.

NACIONAL: Were there ever women at Tilurium?
Soldiers have always been accompanied by women. For a time, women were off limits to them, but they had girlfriends and even children. Near many military camps, housing quarters, canabe legionis, where those women lived, and where there were taverns the soldiers visited have been found. We assume that Tilurium also had such accompanying villages nearby. Furthermore, in some camps, such as Bad Hill or Valkenburg, the remains of children’s and women’s shoes were found in the quarters of the commander, and so it was assumed that his entire family was wit him. That was truly a rarity, as the women of commanders were usually members of the Roman nobility and were not prepared to live in a military camp.

NACIONAL: You’ve published the book ‘Tilurium I’ on the first five years of researching Tilurium. It is bilingual, having been translated into German. What was the response of the book in archeological circles here and abroad?
It is awkward that I speak on the value of my own book, but the fact of the matter is that to date, Croatian archeologists have not published their findings in book form. That is a necessary practice abroad, and it is unthinkable that someone could work for years in the field and not publish anything about it. I published the book after the first five years of research and I am now preparing a second. It is bilingual so that it can be available to foreign archeologists studying similar things. It awoke great interest among archeologists, as it is primarily intended for them. I have received a series of invitations to international symposia and congresses to speak on the site, which has always been successfully received.

NACIONAL: Where have you presented your work abroad?
Where haven’t I! The most recent was the Limes Congress, the largest world congress for provincial archeology which was held in Pecs, Hungary. This congress focuses on the Roman provinces and its borders, and is held every four years in a different country with some three hundred experts from around the world participating. Four years ago I was at a congress in Jordan, before that in Celje, Slovenia, Budapest, Koln, Glasgow and I just returned from Koblenz. I am also involved in various projects and I always have the support of the Ministry of Science and Culture. My colleagues who deal with metal, glass and ceramics are also involved in these projects. The Science Ministry does not finance the digs, but they do aid with my research and attendance at symposia and congresses where I present our scientific experience. They also participate in organizing symposia, like the one I organized in Zagreb in 2003. This is not a large amount of money. Furthermore, the cost of my projects or anyone else’s is available to the public on the Internet. I have also received scientific assistants, which means a lot to me. I have two assistants, both with Master’s degrees, Domagoj Tončinić and Ivana Ozanić. The situation is such that I cannot hire these assistants full time, only when they complete their doctorate degrees. I like this system, because it stimulates work and does not allow for too much leisure at work. The book ‘Tilurium I’ was financed by the Science Ministry.

NACIONAL: Who finances the archeological digs?
The digs are financed by the Ministry of Culture and the local community. The practice is that each project receives some support. I like that because then no one is turned away. That was the case with the research at Gardun. However, I had the great fortune of being accepted by the people of Trilj from day one. They provide food for the students and teachers at the site. When you put all the costs on paper, it turns out that 50% is for food, while the other 50% goes for paying local workers, accommodation, gas, field materials such as shovels, brushes and bags. When something is missing, our sponsors jump in to help. I am so grateful to everyone and I can say that in times of need, I do not hesitate to ask for help. I am not ashamed to humiliate myself a little for archeology.

NACIONAL: Where does your love for archeology come from? When did you decide to study archeology?
I studied at the Classic’s secondary school and began learning Latin and Greek in the 5th grade. Secondly, I grew up in Split, and so all the pre-requisites were there for me to choose something like that. I decided to study archeology and art history.

NACIONAL: How is it that you studied in Innsbruck?
That was because of my husband. He had already been in Innsbruck for a year when I came. We were very successful students, perhaps because we were already together, we didn’t waste time looking for company, we were much calmer. He studied Romanism and literature, finished his doctor’s degree and waited a year for my to finish mine. Then we returned to Split.

NACIONAL: You both finished your doctor’s degrees immediately after completing your undergraduate degrees?
The university system is different in Austria, and this system needs yet to be implemented here. Croatia needs to make many adjustments to Europe. Several years ago, Croatia signed the Bologna Declaration which bound it to equalizing the education systems. We are already working on the system where, for example, a student from Zagreb goes to Heidelberg for one semester, and everything he does there is recognized. That is excellent for students and for professors who can also teach at a foreign university from time to time. This system should be ready by 2010, which I fully support. At the time that Ivo and I were studying in Austria, we could only enroll as foreigners in the doctoral programs. The Austrians enroll in regular studies as by their law, they must immediately receive work in high schools. In order to not employ foreigners, they allow them to enroll in doctoral studies which then does not bind them to employment, and differs from regular studies in that it lasts for a minimum of eight years. That is what we both enrolled in. After four years, when you graduate, you receive a topic, a mentor and special courses to prepare you for scientific work. We did all this in eight years. I finished my studies with a Ph.D. in art history.

NACIONAL: What was your thesis?
I studied classical archeology and received my Ph.D. in 1983 on the topic Scenes of Kerber in ancient art. That book was written in German, translated and released in Croatia. Ivo received his Ph.D. in 1982 with a thesis on the French writer Jean Anouilho. That was also very interesting.

NACIONAL: Were you already married then? Where did you get married?
We were already married. We left Innsbruck to get married in Split. After completing our studies, we decided to move back for good. As beautiful as Tyrol is, we were both craving life in Split. Ivo got a job at the publishing company Logos and I worked for a time as an assistant professor under Tomislav Marasović in art history studies with the University of Zadar where I taught Introduction to Art History.

NACIONAL: Why did you decide to move back to Austria? Weren’t you satisfied in Split?
A new administration was forced upon Logos for political reasons and Ivo lost his job. That was during Communism, but I would prefer not to talk about that because I don’t like how some people like to win points on that. When we went back to Austria in 1987, I thought we would never return to Croatia. However, the situation changed and Ivo, as one of the founders of HDZ, wanted to return. He came to Split at the end of 1990, and I and our two small daughters returned in March of 1991.

NACIONAL: Did you work in Austria?
At that time in Austria, there was great competition among archeologists, and I did not work in the field. Instead, I opened an art consulting company. In that event, I used my art history degree.

NACIONAL: Do you have any archeologists in your family?
No, all of my family are engineers or machinists – my brother, father and grandfather. I didn’t have any talent in that field and was always laughed at at home.

NACIONAL: How did they take your decision to study archaeology?
They weren’t happy. They thought it strange that I would choose that, but I can’t say that they didn’t support me. Most importantly, my parents have always supported me in my career, which has enabled me to work with two children and a husband who is very involved in his work. When they went into retirement in Split, first they would spend a month or two in Zagreb, then a little longer, and now they are with us all the time. At first, they found it difficult, being from Dalmatia, even though my father knows Zagreb well because he studied here. They have never completely moved here, as they continue to dream about Split, but I need them so much that they barely spend three months out of the year in Split. It would be very difficult without my parents. I am truly grateful to my mother.

NACIONAL: Before moving definitively to Zagreb in 1991, you spent a year in Split. What did you do there?
I worked at the university library and Ivo worked at the theatre. In the 1992 elections, he was elected as a Member of Parliament and was invited to become the Science Minister in Zagreb. The kids and I soon followed him.

NACIONAL: You found work at the Faculty of Philosophy in Zagreb, was it difficult to find work?
Of course it was, but I had a Ph.D. in archeology and that was the deciding factor. They sought me out. The professor at the time was going to retire and he asked me to take over. However, it didn’t go quickly, for the Faculty of Philosophy has many others involved in the decisions, not just the archeologists. In the end, I was employed as an assistant, but considering that I am relatively ambitious and hard-working, I moved up the ladder and published my work. Considering my age, I must proudly admit that to date I have published five books and 150 scientific articles.

NACIONAL: Your daughters are now at an age where they perhaps know what they want to do in life.
They have no interest either in politics or archeology, that much I know. But they are still finding their way and are now enjoying the end of school.

NACIONAL: Do they feel pressure being the daughters of the Premier?
I think that everything is still relatively normal, perhaps because they are not yet of age. I think that there is a consensus here that kids are not to be touched. They are used to everyone knowing who their father is. They have no complaints, but they certainly don’t want me to talk about those things. How they’ve managed to be just like all the other kids, I have no idea, but I give them credit.

NACIONAL: Everyone knows that you stay out of the public eye, even though you are likely under increased pressure since your husband became Premier. How do you handle that?
I try not to think about it. I do my work as I always have. There was never any talk of me leaving archeology, and so I had to adjust to all the new obligations. I do as much as I can. I don’t complain, because it does not concern anyone but my family. I go along with my husband where I need to and where I’m invited. I am accustomed to this, as I did the same while Ivo was in diplomacy. At times, I am the hostess for the wives of politicians who come to see us. There are certain rules of conduct that we have to follow. You learn what you need to talk about, what to show and my profession certainly helps here. Archeology is a field that many are interested in.

NACIONAL: Has protocol prepared you for certain situations or have you had to find your way on your own?
In the beginning, when Ivo worked in the Foreign Ministry, we quickly and intensively learned. Croatia had no experience in diplomacy as it had never had its own diplomats. We had to pass through some sort of training. I have no regrets, in fact, everything we learn comes in handy. That was an exciting time.

NACIONAL: Do you friends come to visit the dig site, has your husband been?
He has been, and I expect him to come for at least half an hour to see me. My friends, those that are interested, also come to see the site.

NACIONAL: What are your interests outside your field, how do you “let loose”?
Politics. I would be horrible if I said that politics didn’t interest me. In as much as my husband knows a great deal about archeology. I know as much about politics as I have had the opportunity to learn, as that is also a field that requires talent. Not everyone can be in politics. Otherwise, I think its something that everyone should take an interest in.

NACIONAL: Don’t you think that people in Croatia are over-politicized?
Perhaps it seems that way, but that’s not the case. My students barely follow the headlines, it appear that they are just not interested. So, you are right to an extent, maybe our public life is too politicized. However, I hope that that will change soon.

NACIONAL: Do you speak with your husband about politics, how much do you participate in his work, do you ever give your suggestions?
I would lie if I said that I didn’t participate, as that is our life, and the people we socialize with.

NACIONAL: How much has life at home changed since Sanader became Premier? Is he away more often than before?
Not at all, he is away just as much as before – all day! It was bloody work to get HDZ back to where it was before. But what no one was expecting happened, and that did not just fall out of the sky. He worked very hard. Ivo has been through every town in Croatia and he and his colleagues, have not spared themselves any effort over the past four years.

NACIONAL: Do you plan to come to Gardun every year?
Of course, I’ll come for as long as I’m able to.