President Mesic has shown himself to be a great advocate of the separation of the State and the Church, which he has proven throughout his term in office When Stipe Mesic describes the meeting he had last Thursday at the Vatican during his private audience with Benedict XVI it is hard not to get the impression that the Croatian President feels more at ease in the company of the Pope than with local bishops. He has not in the process distanced himself from a single one of the positions that have for years irritated the majority of the Croatian clergy - at the Vatican Mesic reiterated that he opposes placing crucifixes in schools and public institutions, and that there is room for discussion concerning changes to the concordat between Croatia and the Holy See.

In this interview for Nacional made on Monday, he once again expressed his concern over the behaviour of the local Church leadership and demonstrated that he would remain in the future the advocate of a firm separation of the Church and the State. The way in which he states his positions is so explicit that it would be a real surprise if he were to get the support of any of the relevant presidential candidates.

A pleasant meeting

- From my point of view it was a pleasant meeting. We spoke twice as long as was foreseen by the protocol, which is indicative of the many topics we touched upon. We spoke of Croatia's intention to join the European Union, the barriers that still lie ahead of us on this road, and the Holy Father said that he supports our efforts. We then moved on to the subject of the dispute between the Croatian and Slovenian bishops' conferences, which have found themselves at opposite ends of the border dispute. I said that I think that this is not a good thing because it is an agreement that should be resolved by the political elites of our countries, and now Croatia's Iustitia et Pax and the Slovenian bishop's conference have gotten involved, which is not good because it only deepens the conflict. Slovenia is a friendly country with which we have one open question we need to resolve, but the conflict between the churches hampers this because it increases the danger that the situation could become further aggravated and provoke conflicts between Croatian and Slovenian citizens. Discussing the relations between the State and the Church in Croatia, I said that there are from time to time unnecessary tiffs such as the unnecessary issue of religious symbols in schools. I explained to the Pope that I am obliged to protect the Croatian constitution, which says that only state symbols may be placed in public institutions, and they are the flag and the coat of arms. Some people in the Church have tried to escalate tensions between us on the topic, even though neither I nor they can alter the constitution. To the Holy Father's observation that one ought to respect tradition, I responded that I agreed, but that there were besides Catholics, also Muslims, Orthodox Christians, agnostics and members of other religious communities living in Croatia. When a school principal says that she will place a cross on the wall just in spite, then she is in conflict with our laws, and that should be clearly stated.

Conflicts with the Church

President Mesic with Pope Benedict XVI at the Vatican last week NACIONAL: How did the Pope react?
- He led the conversation in the best possible form, and in the end said only that we should also be mindful of tradition. We did get support for our entry to the EU, and when I invited him to visit Croatia, he said he would certainly try to as soon as the opportunity arose.

NACIONAL: How do you explain the fact that you are the most popular domestic politician, even though you frequently are in conflict an institution as influential as the Catholic Church?
- I have always sincerely stated my views regardless of whether it concerns the Church or some other institution. I expected substantiated responses to my criticism, but instead of that Ivan Miklenic has accused me entirely without stating any evidence in the Glas koncila weekly. I told the Pope too that I am always for a debate, but that I cannot accept that some people in the Church declare me a traitor. When John Paul II visited Dubrovnik, I passed through the city in the company of Bishop Puljic, and some priest named Babajic called me a traitor. I said to Puljic "Had someone working for me insulted you, they would no longer work in my office tomorrow," to which the Bishop responded that he has no power over the priests. That is interesting, bishops can do to all of us what they will, but have no power over priests.

NACIONAL: What kind of impression do the presidential candidates leave on you?
- There are certainly among them those who could perhaps better lead this country and protect the constitution than I myself, but it is certain that they are not all in that position.

The battle against corruption

NACIONAL: Do you mean to abide by your promise that you will in the second round endorse one of the candidates?
- I will probably give my opinion, but it is interesting that some of the press is already attacking me on this account. The intention is to reduce my rating, so that my opinion could not influence the outcome of the presidential elections. Following some of the media, I have the feeling that the editors do their job by attacking me, and not checking the basic facts ahead of time.

Milan Bandic has said that the new president should be a Catholic NACIONAL: What should the chief tasks of you successor be?
- That would be what we have not achieved during my term in office, and that is accession to the European Union, the completion of the reform of the judiciary and changes to legislation that make corruption possible. Public procurement and companies owned by the state are a major problems and rife with scandals.

NACIONAL: You mention the battle with corruption, and it is known that Bandic and Vidosevic are accused of financial manipulations. But they are very serious candidates, just as is Ivo Josipovic, whose program is based on the battle against corruption.
- Josipovic is also the author of a bill that would do away with the statute of limitations for violations of the law in the conversion and privatisation process. All of the candidates now say that they are opposed to bribery and corruption, but we shall see whether they will also fight these negativities.

NACIONAL: Do you believe them?
- I believe some, and some I do not believe.

NACIONAL: Why do you enter into conflicts with the Church?
- I was not I who opened these conflicts, they no longer interest me. I once said that I expected of the bishop's that they distance themselves form the attacks against me, and they only responded curtly that these are not their opinions. Perhaps that is the case, but when one of my associates says something, then this is the position of Stipe Mesic. It is the same with bishops. I wish to be clear - it was not I that opened the conflict with the Church, rather I was censured and attacked by some people in the Church. Personally, I wish to cooperate with the Church while I am President and after my term in office expires, but it bothers me when I am attacked without arguments. Croatia is a secular state in which anyone can wear a cross around their neck, but in schools, courts and military bases there is no place for religious symbols. In a democracy the minority must also be protected, rather than the majority always imposing its will.

The Vatican contracts

NACIONAL: Should some parts of the so-called Vatican contracts between Croatia and the Holy See be revised?
- These contracts were signed at a very dramatic time for Croatia, but everything, including these contracts, are open for debate. But I am a legalist and I told the Pope that so long as these contracts exist they are binding are should be abided by.

MESIC LAID A WREATH on the grave of the late Pope John Paul II NACIONAL: Why did you not forbid access to military facilities to Juraj Jezerinac after he closed on sermon with the words "ready for the homeland"?
- Jezerinac did, however, after a time stop reciting phrases such as "ready for the homeland". Now he does avoid this kind of poetic licence, even though it has cropped up again lately. But when it is I who is at issue, he says only "Peace and goodwill".

NACIONAL: I assume that the attitude of Church authorities towards you was a much more positive one when you were a member of the HDZ?
- That was quite obvious. Actually the relations were good with the HDZ, with which I soon parted ways, because I could not support the wrong policy towards Bosnia & Herzegovina and the wrong model of privatisation. But I would say that the Catholic Church has also in the meantime learned some lessons and is no longer tied to the HDZ or to any other political party. This was not done entirely in the open even in the past, but there were a number of priests who would say, "We are not allowed to be politically active or to encourage people to adhere to a party, but I will vote for the HDZ."